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This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies, and its processes can be discussed.

DYKToolsBot not working

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RoySmith, DYKToolsBot hasn't updated in two weeks. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the note, I'll take a look. RoySmith (talk) 15:37, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. There's a cron job that's been running for a bit over 14 days, which is probably what's holding everything up (as I understand it, cron won't kick off a new job while an old one is still running). I'm not sure what got it wedged, but I've manually kicked off a run and that seems to be working fine so I'll probably just kill the stuck job and see what happens. RoySmith (talk) 16:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside on this, I'd really like to see more joint custody of all the bits and pieces that make DYK run. I hadn't looked at this stuff for over a year and it took me some time to figure out how it all worked again. If I got run over by a bus and somebody had to pick it up from scratch, it would have been even harder. The more we're all familiar with all the moving pieces, the more resilient we all are to roving homicidal busses. RoySmith (talk) 21:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of, just noticed that GalliumBot is down, if theleekycauldron isn't already aware. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@AirshipJungleman29: he's back! (i think.) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 01:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know nominations/Luo Shiwen

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Hi there. Would it be possible to request a second pair of eyes at Template:Did you know nominations/Luo Shiwen? The reviewer, Buidhe and myself disagree about the use of CCP-related sources and its potential impact on article neutrality.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 18:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 3

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Cock Destroyers +1

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I can't touch this because I wrote the articles, but would "that The Cock Destroyers (pictured) released a "gloriously queer" sex education video for Netflix before hosting Slag Wars: The Next Destroyer" flow better?--Launchballer 13:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For your information, I only created the article to fill a redlink at Megan Barton-Hanson since the GA reviewer was asking about it, there is another hook on the nomination that censors the name as "porn stars", and that Fucking Cunt hook received absolutely no blowback whatsoever at WP:ERRORS (and only rocked up at WT:DYK after the nominator objected to it being run too late). If cunt didn't cause offense then, cock shouldn't cause offense now.--Launchballer 21:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dundonald House

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My count is 439 bytes before expansion, 2219 bytes after expansion. That is narrowly above x5. --Soman (talk) 19:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

DYKUpdateBot is down; midnight update delayed

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Regrettably, DYKUpdateBot didn't run at midnight; normally, the update of the main page and all the other moves and credits would have been completed by now.

I have notified Shubinator on his talk page (I initially noticed that DYKHousekeepingBot was down, and discovered that DYKUpdateBot also seemed to be down), in the hopes that he can start the bot soon. In the meantime, we will need an admin to do a manual update: pinging @DYK admins: in the hopes that one of you can step in. Thank you very much. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do the adminny stuff, if someone else can handle the credits and tags :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 00:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
DYKUpdateBot came back online a few minutes after BlueMoonset's message, and had already updated when your update began. Probably best to undo your update? Otherwise one set was on DYK for just 5 minutes. Shubinator (talk) 00:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, just undid. My bad! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 00:22, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great, looks good now! Shubinator (talk) 00:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 4

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He Jianshi

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If this is where I think it is, ("He believed that the Chinese opera could be used to cultivate support for the revolutionaries,[2] and in 1906 he had – together with Pan Dawei, Lai Yitao, and Liang Juexian – established the Youshijie Drama Society in Guangzhou to advance the revolutionary interest, with He as its manager.[9]"), then it probably ought to spell out that the society was used for that purpose. I can't help you with Selfish.--Launchballer 13:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "to advance the revolutionary interest" not sufficiently explicit? Shame about SELF-ISH... if Prep 3 doesn't get a third set of eyes, I may have to go IAR to avoid a failed update, and it looks like this prep may follow the day after.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My beef is that I'm not convinced opera and drama are necessarily the same thing (I did drama in school and there was no opera in it). If push comes to shove, Fijian Labour Corps in prep 7 checks out and can be swapped but let's see if someone else chips in first, and I'll look for another hook in prep if needed.--Launchballer 14:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand that, but the source is clear that the "Drama society" was the name of an opera troupe. "Sun Yat-sen promoted the democratic revolution and regarded drama as an important means [for revolution]. He Jianshi responded positively. In 1906, he, Pan Dawei, Lai Yitao, Liang Juexian and others established the "Youshijie Drama Society" in the Baoan Charity Hall at Huangsha Tiyun Bridge in Guangzhou. He served as the general supervisor and carried out the work of improving Cantonese opera." The spoken-word form of drama, huaju, hadn't arrived until a few years earlier and didn't become mainstream until the 1930s. If you're still uncomfortable with this, He Jianshi's anti-American activities are well documented, including in English, and there was an ALT about not carrying William Howard Taft that could be used. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's fine. This is good to go.--Launchballer 14:46, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SELF-iSH

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As we have another nudity in music videos hook in the next set I suggest kicking this one back anyway per the previous section.--Launchballer 11:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Morgan695, Explicit, Kimikel, and Koopastar: Pinging around so there are no surprises.--Launchballer 13:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Margaret Pargeter

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  • ... that Margaret Pargeter was one of the most widely read authors in Britain in 1986?

The data in the source is from 1985 (the article was published in March 1986, so it can't provide information for that year). I'm also not convinced about the data being bundled by genre (the most popular books were romance novels by five authors including Pargeter, but it doesn't give any actual data for each one) but that's not objectively wrong because of the dreaded "one of"... Black Kite (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming it checks out, "that Margaret Pargeter wrote 49 novels between 1975 and 1986 and published her 50th in 1997" would be a good hook. All references to it in prose are cited to the 1997 novel though. Also, pinging @Cielquiparle, ResonantDistortion, and Hilst:.--Launchballer 10:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I quite like your alt hook. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 11:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer Thanks for the suggestion. Here's my tweak (to make it less "pat" so that there is still something to click for):
  • ... that Margaret Pargeter published 49 novels within 11 years, followed by her 50th novel 11 years later?
Cielquiparle (talk) 20:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is this a reliable source? It doesn't appear to be user generated, and it cites your alt hook apart from the fact it says the 50th was published in 1998 (suspect that might be the US release date, as all other sources say 1997). For someone who was supposedly such a widely-read author, there is very little about her work - I can't even find a proper obituary. Black Kite (talk) 14:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The fact she was a volunteer fire-fighter in the ARP during WWII might be a decent hook as well. Black Kite (talk) 14:22, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per [1], basic members can update the site. So no, not an RS.--Launchballer 14:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Older nominations needing DYK reviewers

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The previous list was archived about half an hour ago, so I've created a new list of 31 nominations that need reviewing in the Older nominations section of the Nominations page, covering everything through October 1. We have a total of 321 nominations, of which 135 have been approved, a gap of 186 nominations that has increased by 16 over the past 6 days. Thanks to everyone who reviews these and any other nominations!

More than one month old

Other nominations

Please remember to cross off entries, including the date, as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Please do not remove them entirely. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am around and will perhaps take a look at a few nominations by tomorrow. Regards, Aafi (talk) 14:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 5

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Flag of Falcón +1

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@Soman: I added a {{cn}} tag to the Flag article as I don't see anywhere that "23 states of Venezuela" is sourced. Also, what makes it notable, given that there are only two references in the article?--Launchballer 12:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get the {cn} tag issue. Are you disputing that Falcon is a state or that Venezuela has 23 states? Or that Falcon has a flag? And for notability, we generally don't test notability of state and national flags. --Soman (talk) 23:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying I think there should be a cite for Venezuela having 23 states, yes. (Also, not really a DYK issue, but regarding "having large whitespace in bottom is not good for readibility", I couldn't agree more - which is exactly why I moved the last three images to a gallery!)--Launchballer 23:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's OK I'm OK

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@MaranoFan, Viriditas, Crisco 1492, and Kimikel: "Edited into it later" needs an end-of-sentence citation.--Launchballer 11:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Viriditas (talk) 11:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me.--Launchballer 11:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Deutscher Kurzwellensender Atlantik

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@Dumelow, Bruxton, and Flibirigit: I believe this needs an end-of-sentence citation.--Launchballer 11:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me.--Launchballer 11:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Abraham Hamadeh

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Template:Did you know/Preparation area 6

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Ye Yanlan

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Looks good to me.--Launchballer 12:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Disputes on Wikipedia

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  • The cited article is from 2020, and knowing the community... is this still current enough, or should we mark the year? Pinging ProfGray, Viriditas, and Kimikel — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi. @Crisco 1492, please be more specific. Which hook are you planning to go with? In what way would you mark the year of the article? Just asking for clarification, I'm not objecting to it. ProfGray (talk) 21:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi ProfGray. The hook "... that the longest "edit war" sequence among disputes on Wikipedia involved 20 editors making 108 reverts on the article about Turkey's first president, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk?" is currently in Prep 6 (linked above). Given that this data is four years old, and Wikipedians tend to be... passionate, I'm wondering if this source is sufficiently current to meet WP:DYKDEFINITE. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The prepper chose the hook, however, it's on me for not noticing the date. I would swap it out with ALT2 as that's the newest source of the bunch (2023). Viriditas (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm fine with ALT2, of course.
    For the concern about ALT1, note that the longest revert sequence happened in 2008 within 48 hours. I believe this fact (or record) is highly unlikely to change (re: WP:DYKDEFINITE) because of how 3RR has been handled for the past decade or more. Thanks. ProfGray (talk) 22:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is fair, though I note their sample size was only a little more than 1,200 articles. I haven't been able to find a full copy of the text through the Wikipedia library or Google. If it's alright with you, I think ALT2 is better supported. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 22:12, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know nominations/Rei Nakashima

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I created and nominated this article a couple of days ago, and I would like to request for an expediated review as I'd like the hook to run on the 27th, which is Nakashima's 20th birthday. Thank you and I hope someone can review the article soon. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:06, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Queue 5

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Núria Llansà

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@Hilst, Kingsif, and Cardofk: The wording of the hook is kind of awkward. Could this be reworked? RoySmith (talk) 15:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@RoySmith: Sorry for the delay. How about "... that despite being Barcelona's starting goalkeeper for 1972, Núria Llansà played one match as a right-back?" – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done, thanks. RoySmith (talk) 15:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Flag of Falcón

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@Kimikel, Soman, and Crisco 1492: The hook is technically short enough (exactly 200 character), but it's a mouthful. Could this be significantly shortened? No need to cram every detail into the hook; just enough to get the reader's attention. RoySmith (talk) 15:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest "that the current flag of Falcón, first hoisted at the Monument to the Venezuelan Federation in 2006, is based on a then-200-year-old naval flag" or even "that the current flag of Falcón was first hoisted at the Monument to the Venezuelan Federation in 2006" if you're feeling ruthless, but I still want the {{cn}} and notability concerns I raised above resolved.--Launchballer 15:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lichfield War Memorial

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@Kimikel, Dumelow, and Flibirigit: There's significant WP:CLOP from historicengland.org.uk. Some of it is unavoidable, but there's a lot of text describing the structure which is so obviously directly from the source it should be quoted and attributed rather than trying to tweak a few words here or there. RoySmith (talk) 15:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above concern is too vague to parse. When analyzing Earwig results, I see proper nouns and directly attributed quotes. Exactly which passages do you find problematic? Flibirigit (talk) 16:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a some obvious examples. There's more, keep looking on your own. Note that WP:CLOP says Close paraphrasing, or patchwriting, is the superficial modification of material from another source. Editors should generally summarize source material in their own words.
In the years prior to the First World War the city of Lichfield housed the depot for the four reserve battalions of the South Staffordshire Regiment and the North Staffordshire Regiment
By the First World War, Lichfield was the depot for the four Reserve Battalions of the South Staffordshire and North Staffordshire Regiments
Bateman also designed the war memorial, which was constructed by Messrs Robert Bridgeman and Sons of Lichfield. The War Memorial Committee decided to restrict eleigibility for appearing on the memorial to men who were born in the city or who lived there at the time of their enlistment
The large war memorial screen, also designed by Bateman, was built by Messrs Robert Bridgeman and Sons against the east wall. It commemorates 209 local servicemen who died during the First World War: the War Memorial Committee had decided to restrict the names to those of the fallen who had been born in Lichfield, or who were living in the city at the time they enlisted
The garden and memorial were opened on 20 October 1920 by the mayor, H. G. Hall, and dedicated the same day by the Bishop of Lichfield John Kempthorne. The ceremony was attended by a large number of dignitaries, the buglers of the 6th Battalion of the North Staffordshire Regiment, the band of the 2nd Battalion of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry and choirs from the cathedral and local churches
The garden was opened, and the memorial screen unveiled, on 20 October 1920 by the Mayor, Councillor HG Hall, and dedicated by the Bishop of Lichfield. The garden was filled with a crowd of civic and ecclesiastical dignitaries, the families of the commemorated men, representatives of the armed services and the uniformed organisations, buglers of the 6th Battalion North Staffordshire Regiment, the band of the 2nd Battalion Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry, the combined choirs of the cathedral and Lichfield’s churches, and local residents
RoySmith (talk) 17:12, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I have been away for a few days. I will gladly take others advice on this but my understanding per WP:FACTSONLY is that facts are not copyrightable, only creative writing is. In my view the examples above are restatements of facts from the source, but happy to look again if we think creative elements have been copied - Dumelow (talk) 07:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am inclined to largely agree. To me, the only part which goes beyond WP:LIMITED is the last sentence of the second highlighted paragraph. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have solved that problem by yeeting that sentence, as adding "the city's" to an earlier paragraph says the same thing.--Launchballer 13:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Roy, I have looked multiple times on my own, and your claims are not obvious. The sections highlighted by Earwig are groups of proper nouns which are not close paraphrasing violations. The lengthy quotes are properly attributed. I do not see where you are coming from on this. Best wishes. Flibirigit (talk) 12:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 7

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Ye Gongchuo

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What makes Who's Who reliable? It's listed as red on WP:RSP.--Launchballer 14:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me. This took a while to verify everything, but I think this is all there so it should be good to go.--Launchballer 01:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SELF-iSH

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Walter Campbell Smith

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WP:DYKN seems messed up

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The articles/templates in November 7 and 8 aren't transcluding. Anyone know what is going on? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The page has exceeded the maximum number of template transclusions due to the backlog of nominations. It's a known issue. Flibirigit (talk) 17:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For a bit more detail, see WP:PEIS RoySmith (talk) 17:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:GA had a backlog drive last month. That's probably also got something to do with it.--Launchballer 18:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 1

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Cock Destroyers +1 (2)

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Fengshan (general)

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I can't see any problems with this.--Launchballer 13:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip (4)

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Pinging all participants to Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 202#Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip 2: @Richard Nevell, Piotrus, Personisinsterest, Hydrangeans, and Chipmunkdavis:.--Launchballer 14:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 2

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Gitmo playlist

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The article itself is fine, however the hook requires knowing who Barney is. (Also, I don't see anything about it at WP:DYKG, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am running an article involved in a current move request given the potential for a redirect on the main page.)--Launchballer 10:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Xinwen Bao

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My gut reaction to seeing this was 'the article's lede could do with another sentence', but strictly speaking that's not a DYK issue so this is fine.--Launchballer 10:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 3

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Muthkwey

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@Ornithoptera, Tenpop421, and Crisco 1492: This is cited to a Master's thesis, which I'd question the reliability of anyway, but it says "Another story tells that our ancestors [...] considered it to be sacred because it came from sʔi:łqəy̓ (Musqueam Indian Band, 2011). Our people were not permitted to walk over or harvest it." This isn't quite what the hook's saying. Going by the nom, I suspect a different reference was intended. (Also, not really a DYK issue, but this would probably deserve {{lead too short}}.)--Launchballer 10:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sʔi:łqəy is defined as a "two-headed serpent" on Page 49, and this source supports the droppings being the area where the grass sprouted. The only thing I'm seeing that is not quite there is "did not" versus "were not allowed to", which I had considered sufficient in paraphrasing to allow. Would "it was taboo to harvest or step over" work better to reflect the source?  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence containing "droppings" is only cited to [2], and I don't see it in there.--Launchballer 15:53, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So it does, my mistake. (I somehow missed the first instance.)--Launchballer 16:31, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Also noting here that I populated Prep 4, and thus won't be able to touch it. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 15:11, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correction for tomorrow?

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We've been discussing posting correction bullets here and there when we get hooks wrong. I think this would be a good time to test it:

  • Correction: A hook that aired yesterday claimed that "the Holy See has an official anime mascot", named Luce. Luce is only the mascot of the Catholic Church's 2025 Jubilee, and while its design has been compared to anime, it is not Japanese animation or artwork.

Pinging @Tamzin, Wound theology, Secretlondon, Di (they-them), and Crisco 1492 for thoughts :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whether it was an error

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Subsectioned by Tamzin at 21:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
The 2025 Jubilee is overseen by the Holy See, so she is for intents and purposes a mascot of (owned by) the Holy See as a mascot of one of its projects. In this case the word "anime" is being used to describe the art style, not necessarily Japanese animation; "anime style" is a well-known phenomenon even in art that isn't necessarily from Japan. I don't think the hook is inaccurate, it just uses the terms in a slightly different way than you interpreted them. Di (they-them) (talk) 20:57, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think there's a difference between having a mascot for a specific procession and being a mascot of the organization as a whole. Miraitowa and Someity are only mascots of the 2020 Olympics, not all of the Games in perpetuity. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but it would not be inaccurate to describe Miraitowa and Someity as "Olympic mascots" or "mascots of the Olympics". They are not the mascots of all Olympics, but they are examples of mascots of the Olympics. I think the same thing applies to Luce here. Luce is not the mascot of the Holy See, but she is a mascot used by the Holy See. "The Holy See has a mascot" does not necessarily only imply the former. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (ec) I am going to note that Merriam Webster gives a more general definition of anime as "a style of animation originating in Japan that is characterized by stark colorful graphics depicting vibrant characters in action-filled plots often with fantastic or futuristic themes"; Britannica likewise gives "a style of animation that was created in Japan and that uses colorful images, strong characters, and stories that have a lot of action". Although several dictionaries do require Japanese origin as part of their definition, there is a shifting in the language to recognize foreign animation in the anime style as anime. (That being said, our article for non-Japanese anime like Totally Spies! is at Anime-influenced animation, so that link would have been better on the main page). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 20:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I also agree with Di that this is "a mascot owned by the the Holy See" (i.e., the Holy See has this mascot), even if it is not "the mascot of the Holy See".  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:02, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Does any reliable source call her an "official mascot of the Holy See"? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:06, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's not what I'm saying she was. In fact, it's the opposite. I refer you to Di's response above. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:10, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        But that's what the hook said she was! The full hook was "... that the Holy See has an official anime mascot?" Does that claim appear in any reliable source? If not, it is an error for our purposes. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        That's what you are reading the hook as saying. I, as with Di, am reading it as "... the Holy See possesses/owns a mascot", which is entirely supported by the references. Di has made the point very succinctly below: "The hook did not call her the Holy See's mascot. The hook stated that "The Holy See has a mascot", implying ownership. It's like how if I said "The Olympics have ferret mascots", that doesn't necessarily mean that Tina and Milo are the only Olympic mascots or that they represent all Olympic events."  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:14, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        I will point out that I wrote the hook originally, so my interpretation as referring to ownership is the correct/intended meaning. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        I'm glad that was your intended meaning, Di, but I would expect it to have been, since I know that you're a capable and competent editor who participates in good faith, and the alternative would have been you introducing a deliberate error, which is not something I suspected of you even for a minute. You made a mistake in wording, not even that large a mistake, but still a mistake that will have now given the wrong impression of Luce's status to anyone who read that hook. It's not the end of the world, but should be corrected, and the fact that you read the hook as saying what you intended isn't really what matters. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        Your and Di's Olympics example relies on the syntactic ambiguity of "The Olympics" meaning either "an individual instance of the Olympic Games" or "the International Olympic Committee". Per [3], Tina and Milo are "the official mascots for the Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games Milano Cortina 2026", and that is how Tina and Milo describes them. To say "the Olympics have ferret mascots" would be not incorrect, but imprecise, owing to that syntactic ambiguity. There is no such ambiguity here. The Holy See is never referred to as the 2025 Jubilee. The Holy See is an entity coördinating the 2025 Jubilee, which in turn has a mascot named Luce, which in no way makes Luce an "official mascot" that the Holy See "has", at least not in the way those words are interpreted by normal people. A better comparison here would be saying "... that the United States has an official mascot who is a bear in a hat", which likewise is not true at least as most people would interpret that. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        I think that "The United States federal government has a mascot that is a bear in a hat" would be a totally acceptable and accurate claim to make. It does not imply that Smokey represents the entire government, just that the government uses him. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:29, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        Precisely. This "syntactic ambiguity" doesn't stop other sources from using similar phrasing. Like, say, "The Vatican’s cartoon mascot for Jubilee 2025", "The Vatican has a new mascot: an anime girl named Luce", The Anime Mascot of the Catholic Church", etc. etc.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        Those are all WP:HEADLINES. The body of the first says "the Vatican has launched a cartoon mascot unveiled Monday as the cheerful face of the Catholic Church's upcoming holy year" and later in a caption "the official mascot for the Catholic Church’s 2025 Jubilee Year". The body of the second says "The Vatican announced the official mascot for Jubilee 2025". The third is WP:FORBESCON, so not an RS, but regardless doesn't call her the official mascot of the Holy See either.
        More generally, if this is what it's going to be like every time someone suggests a correction—essentially, people involved in an erroneous hook reversing all existing principles of hook accuracy to make it a game of "Is there some theoretical way that the hook isn't an error?"—then we should probably just give up on the process right now. As with Di, I'd suggest you step back and let uninvolved parties comment here. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        "The Holy See has an official anime mascot" is not the same as "Luce is a/the mascot of the Holy See". The former implies ownership, the latter implies that she represents the Holy See specifically. Like, if I said "Nintendo has an electric mouse mascot", that does not mean that Pikachu is the mascot of Nintendo. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:15, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        Is it literally correct that Nintendo has an electric mouse mascot, where has strictly denotes corporate ownership? Sure. Are 99% of readers going to interpret that as saying "Pikachu is the official mascot of Nintendo, broadly construed"? Also yes. Communication is a two-person game, and I think it's worth clarifying when we miscommunicate. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        I should hope not, given that the whole point of a is to indicate "one of several". When I say I have a pen, or I have a pineapple, I'm not implying that mine is the only pen or pineapple in the world (or even my only pen or pineapple). It's the same in this case: they have a mascot, but it is not necessarily to the exclusion of all others. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        Fine, 99% of readers interpret it as "Pikachu is an official mascot of Nintendo, broadly construed". Which it isn't, not unless Harry the Hawk is an official mascot of Tony Ressler. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        It's not anime, it's anime-style (according to outsiders). It's also not an official mascot of the Holy See (see above). Secretlondon (talk) 23:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I also agree that the "anime" part is borderline. Calling her the Holy See's mascot, though, was a clear misstatement of fact; being close to correct doesn't make it not a misstatement. And if we're correcting the clear error, might as well correct the borderline one too. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The hook did not call her the Holy See's mascot. The hook stated that "The Holy See has a mascot", implying ownership. It's like how if I said "The Olympics have ferret mascots", that doesn't necessarily mean that Tina and Milo are the only Olympic mascots or that they represent all Olympic events. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:08, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am going to heavily disagree on the "there is a shifting in the language to recognize foreign animation in the anime style as anime." This is indeed happening to some extent, but it's very inorganic and is indeed something of a sore point among anime fans. The ones who are pushing for the "redefinition" of "anime" are usually the producers of these series themselves. But I digress, this is getting offtopic. Suffice to say, calling Luce an "anime mascot" is debatable, perhaps calling her "anime-style" would have been a suitable compromise. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What a correction would look like

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Subsectioned by Tamzin at 21:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
I like this idea, but some suggested tweaks:
  • "hook" is jargon and could be replaced with "entry"
  • "said" is preferable to "claimed", standard in corrections in newspapers etc.
  • I don't think "only" is necessary
  • "its" would work for the design, but when saying "its design" the pronoun is referring to the character, so "her" would be correct.
-- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 20:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gotcha, so something like:
  • ALT0a: An entry that aired yesterday said that "the Holy See has an official anime mascot", named Luce. Luce is the mascot of the Catholic Church's 2025 Jubilee, and while her design has been compared to anime, it is not strictly Japanese animation or artwork.
theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:00, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah! Oh and maybe "ran" over "aired", to keep with the newspaper-y feel. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:02, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Was trying to figure out what to do with that one :) ALT0b: An entry that ran yesterday said that "the Holy See has an official anime mascot", named Luce. Luce is the mascot of the Catholic Church's 2025 Jubilee, and while her design has been compared to anime, it is not strictly Japanese animation or artwork. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't think that a "correction" is necessary. I have explained that the hook refers to Luce being owned by the Holy See, and she does indeed fit multiple definitions of anime. This correction feels overly pedantic over a misinterpretation of the language used. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Di (they-them): You don't need to reply to every message to say it wasn't an error. That's already being discussed above. Maybe this should be subsectioned off into "whether it's an error?" (although this was already discussed at WP:ERRORS) and "what correction if any to run". -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I love the idea of a correction. It would help DYK take ownership of misleading hooks. Secretlondon (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As one of the regulars here who is into anime, seeing non-Japanese originating works being called "anime" triggers my anime fanboy senses. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:48, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Too wordy, which as mentioned below seriously compromises Main Page balance. Would request that the correction be delayed for a couple of days while a better layout is worked out. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At least. And the two displaced hooks need to go back in.--Launchballer 19:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@AirshipJungleman29 and Launchballer: huh? It's two lines on my screen, same as the two hooks I removed. Wikipedia:Main Page/Tomorrow is balanced for me. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:29, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

General comments

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Subsectioned by Tamzin at 21:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
Are we doing anything about the large amount of whitespace under "On this day" on Wikipedia:Main Page/Tomorrow?--Launchballer 02:51, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I bumped a couple of hooks back, but OTD probably has to cover the rest. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 05:34, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't support this. We shouldn't be rearranging sets so close to showtime.--Launchballer 12:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, if we want to correct mistakes, it's kind of the only way. Unless you're saying we put corrections in the back of the queue and air them a week later, which I don't love because we'll be reaching barely any of the same readers. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What makes you think that there are more people reading two sets aired days apart than people reading two sets aired weeks apart? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For sure you're right on that; i just meant that if we're gonna air a correction, we ideally wanna reach as many people who saw the original hook as possible, so the sooner we air it, the better. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:06, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This correction at least takes up a disproportionate amount of space and has involved two hooks being bumped back through no fault of their own. We are not the only ones making errors. If we are to do this, then it should not be part of our box.--Launchballer 20:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All right, well, pulled. I'll just say for the record that I don't think a dedicated corrections box is really ever gonna happen, especially since the MP only makes a handful of on-the-page errors every month. And yeah, hooks get bumped sometimes, it's arbitrary and it happens. There goes our chance to be the example that leads to other areas making their own corrections and eventually maybe getting a dedicated box, though. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)That's not the point of a correction. Most newspaper corrections are buried away in a little box on page 17. A correction is to show the world that you adhere to at least one aspect of the journalism standards. Far better for DYK's purposes would be a link at the bottom, next to the others, which displays "Errors" and links to a page where potential errors and corrections could be stored. FWIW, I don't think think a syntactic ambiguity of the above sort even deserves a correction, but whatever. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:46, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a reason why we don't try to have some kind of errors page listing all the errors we've had? I vaguely remember it being proposed before. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One thing I'd like to see (I believe I've mentioned this before) is to have the entire history of a hook in one place. Right now it gets scattered across the nom template, one (or possibly more) threads on this page, and maybe on WP:ERROR. RoySmith (talk) 03:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • So is there really no interest or appetite among the regulars for some kind of place where pulls, corrections, etc. are listed or mentioned? I don't know if the correction thing that Leeky proposed was the best option, but having zero form of accountability for errors doesn't seem optimal. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would prefer a standard template for talk pages. It could add each usage to a category for main page corrections, and it wouldn't need anything beyond a |diff-url= parameter. The talk page is already the standard place to discuss or read about updates and corrections to an article. Many online news sites note their corrections on the article page, not on the main page. This would also be more permanent and transparent than a one-day main page notice.
    Previously, I added Wikipedia:Did you know/Removed/2023–24 to the list of Archives and copied in a bunch of other corrections from another archive, but this is something that can only exist if someone is going to put the work in to maintain it. Rjjiii (talk) 07:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be happy with an Errors link next to "Archive/Start a new article/Nominate an article" complete with recent errors.--Launchballer 19:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A dedicated errors page?

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This has been discussed multiple times before, but it seems there is at least some interest for a dedicated DYK errors and corrections page. How should one be maintained, where can be it linked to, and who is willing to maintain it? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:25, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since I have been uninvolved in this discussion, here’s my take. I think a “correction” of sorts should be added after concensus (as the beautiful discussion above is a great example) that a “correction” hook should run. It could be a separate box and only run after this concensus is reached, sort of like FLs but not by-day. EF5 22:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A dedicated errors page that isn't limited to just whatever is currently on the main page (i.e. people can bring up errors from any DYK) would be very useful for tracking the actual error rate.
I would also be highly interested in tracking the DYKs for articles that were later deleted/merged/redirected. JoelleJay (talk) 03:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know nominations/Tyromancy

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@Jonathan Deamer, Rlendog, and Hey man im josh: A version of the hook with the noun form (fortune-telling) instead of "to tell fortunes" would make it more clear that this article will not actually help readers to tell fortunes using cheese. Rjjiii (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Negative Israel hooks

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Even if each hook on its own is fine, to meet WP:DUE we may to have to intentionally begin spacing these way out or to reject some. Currently we have:

  1. Template:Did you know nominations/Shadia Abu Ghazaleh
  2. Template:Did you know nominations/Barquq Castle
  3. Template:Did you know nominations/Eurovision Song Contest 2000
  4. Template:Did you know nominations/Genocide in the Hebrew Bible
  5. Template:Did you know nominations/Old City of Gaza
  6. Template:Did you know nominations/Tel al-Sultan attack

And since the Israel–Hamas war (October 7), we've already run many hooks in this vein, Rjjiii (talk) 17:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not hatchet our counts before they chicken. Two of those are less than a fortnight old and a non-Israeli hook can probably be found for the Eurovision article. (Probably. I'm yet to read it.) Three of them are quite old and I can see them timing out. Let's see which are Approved before jumping to conclusions. (I see one Israeli hook in prep 1, but that might get kicked back again.)--Launchballer 19:26, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Israel-related hook in Eurovision Song Contest 2000 is just one alternative out of four. jlwoodwa (talk) 19:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All queues are empty

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The next prep for promotion, Prep 1, is being held up by my Cock Destroyers nom and the Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip hook. @AirshipJungleman29:, you said that you were "torn" as to whether the Cock Destroyers should run - have you come to a decision (and if not, would you entertain a hook that doesn't mention them by name such as the nom's ALT0)? And @RoySmith:, have your concerns regarding the Israeli hook been resolved (and if not, what needs to be done and by who)?--Launchballer 00:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

took prep 1 to queue, will do the checks in a couple hours; might end up bumping the two hooks mentioned here. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 00:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm hesitant to answer that question because I suspect I'll get dragged into a detailed discussion which I don't want to get dragged into (i.e. the "what needs to be done and by whom part). But, broadly speaking, yes, I think the article has POV issues and I think we'd be better off not running it. And, to be honest, I've looked at promoting this prep a few times and every time I look at the title of the first hook I decide I just don't want to go there. RoySmith (talk) 00:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Queue 1

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The Cock Destroyers (nom), redux

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@Launchballer, Crisco 1492, and JuniperChill: I'm aware of the discussion above expressing concerns that seem to be based on WP:DYKGRAT. Reading through the discussion – and I don't have the strongest stomach – I think this is a pretty clear case of NOTCENSORED. The C of E's hooks were unsuitable because they were intentionally crafted to be more vulgar and sexual than they had any need to be, but to stop this hook from running would basically be saying "no one who puts the word 'cock' in their work title can have an article about their work featured at DYK", which I think is plainly contradictory with NOTCENSORED. Compare that to Template:Did you know nominations/United States v. One Solid Gold Object in Form of a Rooster, which really is just gratuitous writing.

So, all that aside, the "gloriously queer" part doesn't check out. One, it should be attributed, and two, the source doesn't say the video is "gloriously queer", it says the curriculum is. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:22, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say the options are "... that The Cock Destroyers (pictured) released a sex education video with a curriculum once described as "gloriously queer" for Netflix before hosting Slag Wars: The Next Destroyer?", which is clunky, or leaving the quote out altogether. (Possibly worth adding "trans-inclusive" to the hook instead?)--Launchballer 10:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
was gonna say "trans-inclusive" too, although... as a trans person, I do worry about the stereotypes that might reinforce. outside opinions needed. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 11:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do wonder if one option would just be to split the hook into two separate hooks: one for The Cock Destroyers, and one for Slag Wars. I am neutral on whether or not we should mention the duo's name in the hook (in this case, it's arguably not gratuitous since it really is the group's name), although one solution could be to avoid mentioning them by name. Something like "... that a pornographic double act (pictured) released a trans inclusive sex education video with a curriculum once described as "gloriously queer"?" If too clucky, we could remove "pornographic" and just call them "a double act". Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention, we also have an article about The End of the F***ing World which was popular in 2018, although the name is already censored. But anyway, I dont think its harmful to include the name of the duo as that's a proper name. It clearly reminds me of one obscure Austrian town that has the f word on it. And would Scunthorpe be allowed especially with a phenomenon named after it? JuniperChill (talk) 11:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue that going out on "the most-subscribed video on demand streaming media service" (from Netflix's article) adds interest and I meant that "trans-inclusive" instead of "gloriously queer" (as in "a pornographic double act (pictured) released a trans-inclusive sex education video for Netflix"); for the amount of extra words "gloriously queer" would require, I'm not sure it's worth it. I don't know enough about trans stereotypes to comment on it and I have no opinion on whether the hook should be split in half (other than this is more than two months old and I'm uneasy about reopening the nom!), but for now I would suggest any of the following as hooks:
... that Sophie Anderson delayed undergoing buttock augmentation for Slag Wars: The Next Destroyer?
... that the game show Slag Wars: The Next Destroyer, intended as a celebration of sex work, has been described as "fun for all the family"? (actually, is that one too gratuitous?)
... that a scene in Slag Wars: The Next Destroyer was a contender for one reviewer's "television moment of the year"?
... that the second series of Slag Wars: The Next Destroyer aired four years after the first? (maybe "due to what a presenter described as a "viscous email", but is that too clunky?)
... that although the first series of Slag Wars: The Next Destroyer only took four days to film, two of its contestants and its host had to quarantine for two weeks?--Launchballer 12:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who promoted this article, I'm fine with running an alt hook. I also think that this hook is alright for the main page. I get that this policy is stricter on the main page, but people hear cocktail all the time. Peacock. I also said above about Cockfosters being a London Underground station. At the end of the Piccadilly line. We also had issued with the image earlier when I promoted it as it was two separate images, but its now fixed now that its merged. JuniperChill (talk) 11:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip (nom), redux

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@Richard Nevell, Piotrus, and Crisco 1492: There are a couple of discussions above about the number of articles we've been running that reflect badly on Israel, and whether this article in particular should be run. I can't really speak to that, because I'm only here in my capacity as a DYK admin to verify this specific article. If the community wants to or doesn't want to run it, that's up to them. I'm happy to pull it pending further discussion.

But I do have NPOV concerns on this article. First is the line Israel's destruction of cultural heritage in Gaza has been conducted in a systematic way. First, systematic actions are necessarily intentional, and per this article, intentional destruction is a war crime, so this sentence directly entails the assertion that Israel has committed war crimes. That could be a reasonable assertion if the sourcing were there for it, but of the four sources cited, it's only 2–1 with 1 abstention: Procter 2024 and Taha 2024 support it, Bisharat 2024 avoids making that assertion and only says it could amount to war crimes, and Tastan 2024 is an unreliable source that should be removed. I think the claim would need to be well-established among reliable sources (i.e. RSes assert that it is well-established) in order to be asserted this way.

Second, there's the quote box at the top of #Cultural heritage in Gaza. Per MOS:PQ, pull quotes are not allowed because it's a form of editorializing, produces out-of-context and undue emphasis, and may lead the reader to conclusions not supported in the material. While this quote box isn't a pull quote, it does place an undue emphasis on Humber's viewpoint, which I don't think is proper in a GA/DYK. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

El Eternauta: tercera parte (nom)

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@Cambalachero: I'm aware you've explained the author/self-insert merger at length, but you should really make it clear in the article so that this doesn't come up at ERRORS. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Moses da Rieti (nom)

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  • ... that a poem by Moses da Rieti includes an encyclopedia of the sciences, a Jewish paradise fantasy, and a post-biblical history of Jewish literature?

@Andrevan: This is both a bit of a close paraphrase of the source and, at the same time, not necessarily correct. The source says in its abstract that "the poem is at once an encyclopedia of Jewish and secular sciences, a description of the 'Jewish Paradise' and a history of Jewish literature". I'm pretty sure the secondary author here is using "encyclopedia" figuratively, not to mention that abstracts aren't always reliable? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 10:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Czarodziejski okręt (nom): intriguing?

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I'm not sure this hook passes WP:DYKINT, but out of respect for the fact that it's made it through a nominator, reviewer, and promoter, I wanted to do a strawpoll here first. Do uninvolved people think this hook is likely to entice a reader into clicking on the article? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's interesting from the POV of someone like myself who is intrigued by the deep genre of SF, which doesn't seem to have a bottom; I also think Poland is on the map when it comes to the genre, given the status of Stanisław Lem. It's too bad more couldn't be said about the robinsonade in the hook, given how wildly popular this genre has become in film in just the last 20 years. So yes, I would be clicking on that as fast as I can, but I can't say the same for others. Could it be made more interesting? Yes. Viriditas (talk) 10:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's too bad that WP:DYKFICTION applies, given that I think a hook based on the following quote is a much more interesting option:

The novel can also be categorized as science fiction because Umiński describes advanced, futuristic for his time wireless telegraphy with a range of 5,000 km, and what is effectively a radio, which he calls a "metatelephone".

Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pablo Barragán (nom): intriguing?

[edit]

Same as above :) I'm not sure this hook passes WP:DYKINT, but out of respect for the fact that it's undergone extensive discussion, I wanted to do a strawpoll here first. Do uninvolved people think this hook is likely to entice an average reader into clicking on the bolded article? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's interesting to me personally because I'm a lifelong fan of classical and jazz music; but I find the hook way too long and I think it should be shortened. In other words, "... that classical clarinetist Pablo Barragán originally wanted to be a jazz saxophonist?" Now, I'm sure that's not the best hook we can create, but I think it's usable. I'm particularly interested in the intersection between classical and jazz, and sometimes, not very often, the two can collide or meet, and that's where the magic begins. So reading a hook that tells me an accomplished classical musician originally wanted to be a jazz saxophonist is endlessly fascinating for me, but the hook shouldn't be so long. What's missing from an interest POV is why Barragán stuck with one instrument instead of the other, or why he was originally interested in the sax. That would be a great hook. Viriditas (talk) 10:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How would that hook say at all that he is accomplished if no accomplishment is mentioned? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why did he want to play sax? Viriditas (talk) 11:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the nom I mentioned that it would be better to not mention the orchestra by name, but Grimes2 really wanted it to be mentioned. For what it's worth, I do think that the best option would be a very simple hook like "... that classical clarinetist Pablo Barragán originally wanted to be a jazz saxophonist?", although the proposed ALT4b might be a suitable compromise. The issue is that I think the link would distract from the main point of the hook, and many times (but not always), the most straightforward option is the best. Pinging Launchballer as promoter and for further input. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:04, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was hoping to strawpoll uninvolved people, but I do appreciate your input :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 11:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) I (article author) don't find it intriguing and said so in the nom. The worst part is "played at festivals" - tell me any notable musician who didn't? Also: he first played in the orchestra (as an orchestra member), then as a soloist. I typically think we should say something about what the subject does now, not wanted to be as a child, and then claim that was the "main point". I got used (over 5 years by now) not to be heard. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This has been a recurring issue among your nominations, and it has to be repeated here: it is not about what you find intriguing, it is what the reader is likely to see as intriguing. That's the whole purpose of WP:DYKINT. It talks about the reader, not the nominator or contributor. Hooks are not always intended to be about a subject's claim to fame, but rather to highlight something that is likely to make the reader want to read the subject's article more. That's why they're called hooks. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let's not do this again, okay? I just took a look at the source and I see a great hook. It turns out that the point isn't that Barragán wanted to play jazz saxophone as a kid, it's that he wanted to play clarinet more because it reminded him of the sound of a human voice.[4] That's the hook. Viriditas (talk) 11:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT ... that Pablo Barragán originally wanted to be a jazz saxophonist, but became a clarinetist because it reminded him of the human voice?
It would require being added to the article, but the German source (based on GT at least) seems to confirm the fact. Not sure if "it" should be "the clarinet", or if the context is already clear enough. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the wording could definitely be improved upon, but that's the point. Viriditas (talk) 11:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Go ahead, keep ignoring me. I'll be out for two weeks, and won't take my laptop. You will have to make changes to the article yourselves. I was quite pleased with mentioning the orchestra where Palestinians and Israelis play together. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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